>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY  VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: WELCOME TO NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS.

I’M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

AS WE START LOOKING AHEAD AT 2023, WE WANT TO FIX OUR  ATTENTION ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

THIS WEEK ON THE SHOW, 'OUR LAND' SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA  PASKUS TAKES US THROUGH SOME OF THE LESSONS WE LEARNED IN  2022 ABOUT FIRE, DROUGHT, FLOODS, AND THE CHANGING  WORLD.

>> Laura: 2022 WAS AN  EXTRAORDINARY YEAR FOR MANY REASONS.

IN NEW MEXICO, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY FOR WIND.

DROUGHT.

FIRE.

AND FLOODS.

WE HAVE LONG KNOWN THE  CLIMATE IS CHANGING.

WE HAVE SEEN AND FELT  IMPACTS FOR DECADES.

BUT THIS YEAR, THINK BACK TO  THE SPRING AND THE SUMMER.

THIS YEAR FELT DIFFERENT.

AND IT TAUGHT US SOME THINGS.

IF 2022 OFFERED A PREVIEW OF WHAT’S TO COME, AND  SCIENTISTS SAY THAT IT DID, THERE IS WORK TO DO.

CUTTING GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, FUNDING AND  IMPLEMENTING WATER PLANNING, SHORING UP COMMUNITIES  AGAINST WILDFIRE, AND PROTECTING OUR UNIQUE AND  OUR BELOVED ECOSYSTEMS.

2022 WAS HARD FOR A LOT OF  NEW MEXICANS, MANY OF WHOM ARE STILL NOW LIVING WITH  THE FALLOUT OF A FIRE SEASON THAT WAS ALREADY FULL-BLOWN  IN APRIL, NEW MEXICANS WHOSE COMMUNITIES ARE BELOW BURN  SCARS THAT WILL FLOOD FOR YEARS TO COME.

AND IF YOU’RE LIKE ME, YOU PROBABLY KNOW SOME FARMERS  WHO ARE ALREADY WORRIED ABOUT NEXT YEAR.

NEW MEXICO COMMUNITIES ARE OFTEN DESCRIBED AS  RESILIENT, AND THAT CAN BE TRUE.

BUT REALLY LEARNING FROM THIS YEAR AND MAKING CHANGES  GIVES US THE CHANCE TO SHOW LOVE FOR OUR NEIGHBORS AND  CARE FOR THE FUTURE.

WE START THE SHOW WITH FIRE.

>> Laura: COLLIN HAFFEY,  WELCOME.

>> Haffey: HI, LAURA.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: SO I JUST WANT TO  START, LIKE, STATE WIDE.

WHEN IT COMES TO FIRE, FIRE  SEASON, WHAT ARE THE BIG LESSONS WE LEARNED IN 2022.

>> Haffey: OH, MY GOSH.

HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

THAT'S A BIG QUESTION.

I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, 2022  WAS A RECORD-BREAKING YEAR FOR NEW MEXICO.

ALMOST A MILLION ACRES BURNED ACROSS THE STATE.

AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ACKNOWLEDGE ALL OF  THE HARD WORK THAT WENT IN FROM OUR FEDERAL PARTNERS,  OUR STATE PARTNERS, OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY PEOPLE.

I MEAN, PEOPLE STEPPED UP IN ALMOST EVERY ASPECT OF THIS.

SO IT WAS REALLY INSPIRING, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS AN  INCREDIBLY CHALLENGING YEAR FOR US.

THE LESSONS THAT WE LEARNED?

ON THE ONE HAND, GIVEN THAT  IT WAS A RECORD-BREAKING YEAR IN THE FIRES, YOU KNOW,  FOR THE MOST PART, EXCEPT FOR TWO TRAGIC LIVES LOST IN  RUIDOSO, WE KEPT PEOPLE MOSTLY SAFE, YOU KNOW, IN  THESE FIRES.

SO I THINK THAT'S ONE REALLY  GOOD LESSON, THAT OUR SYSTEMS WORKED TO HELP KEEP  PEOPLE SAFE, FROM EARLY WARNING SYSTEMS TO THE  COORDINATED RESPONSE AND THE QUICK ACTION OF OUR LOCAL  AND STATE OFFICIALS.

SO ON THE ONE HAND, GREAT  LESSONS LEARNED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'RE  REALLY -- IT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW WE'RE LOSING  THE BATTLE ON OUR FUELS AND CLIMATE PROBLEM.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU LOOK AT THE BLACK FIRE  OR THE HERMITS PEAK/CALF CANYON FIRE, THESE ARE  REALLY FUELS PROBLEMS COMBINED WITH WARMING  TEMPERATURES.

AND SO THAT'S ONE THING THAT  WE'LL TAKE AWAY FROM THIS, IS JUST WE'RE STILL -- EVEN  THOUGH WE MAY WIN SOME OF THOSE BATTLES, WE'RE LOSING  THE OVERALL WAR.

>> Laura: WE'RE TALKING  RIGHT NOW AT THE END OF NOVEMBER, AND I KNOW YOU  CAN'T TOTALLY PREDICT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN 2023, BUT  WHAT KIND OF FIRE SEASON COULD WE BE LOOKING AT NEXT  YEAR AND IN THE COMING YEARS?

LIKE, DO WE NEED TO BE READY ALL THE TIME?

>> Haffey: YEAH.

I MEAN, THE SHORT ANSWER IS,  YES, WE NEED TO BE READY ALL THE TIME.

WE'VE BEEN IN A SITUATION FOR ALMOST A DECADE NOW  WHERE WE DON'T HAVE A FIRE SEASON, WE HAVE A FIRE YEAR.

AND THAT MEANS THAT ON ANY GIVEN DAY, WE CAN HAVE A  WILDFIRE IN NEW MEXICO.

IT DOESN'T MEAN EVERY SINGLE  DAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO HAVE A LAS  CONCHAS OR A HERMITS PEAK/CALF CANYON TYPE OF  FIRE, BUT THE FUELS ARE AVAILABLE.

I MEAN, TODAY, JUST DRIVING IN, IT'S WINDY, IT'S DRY,  THERE'S NO SNOW ON THE GROUND.

ALL WE ARE IS ONE IGNITION AWAY FROM A WILDFIRE.

SO WHAT CAN WE DO?

WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SHOWN  THAT DEFENSIBLE SPACE AROUND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND  HOMES WORKS, SO WE'LL CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

WE KNOW THAT THE FUELS TREATMENTS IN THE  WATERSHEDS, LIKE IN OUR CRITICAL WATERSHEDS, THOSE  DO WORK, BUT THEY'RE LIKE SEAT BELTS, RIGHT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE WEARING A SEAT BELT  YOU CAN DRIVE 90 MILES AN HOUR AND HAVE UNSAFE  CONDITIONS AND RUN INTO A SEMI-TRUCK AND HOPE THAT  YOU'RE GOING TO SURVIVE THAT.

YES, IT PREVENTS A LOT OF INJURIES AND FATALITIES, BUT  IT ONLY GOES SO FAR.

AND THAT'S HOW OUR FUELS  TREATMENTS ARE, TOO.

THEY CAN HELP US ENGAGE WITH  THE FIRE, THEY CAN MODERATE SOME OF THE EFFECTS, BUT  THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO MUCH AGAINST RECORD-BREAKING  WINDS AND TEMPERATURES, AND UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE SEEING  HIGHER TEMPERATURES MORE OFTEN THROUGHOUT THE YEAR  AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME WINDY CONDITIONS THAT  COME ALONG WITH THAT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT UNCOMMON  TO HAVE WIND IN APRIL.

EVERY NEW MEXICAN KNOWS  THAT'S OUR WINDY SEASON.

BUT IT IS A LITTLE BIT  UNCOMMON TO HAVE 40 MILE AN HOUR STEADY WINDS FOR 21  DAYS IN A ROW, RIGHT.

SO HOW MUCH OF THAT IS  CLIMATE CHANGE AND HOW MUCH OF THAT IS JUST RANDOM  EVENT, I DON'T KNOW.

SO WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO DO  THE WORK, TO STRATEGICALLY PROTECT WATERSHEDS,  STRATEGICALLY PROTECT HOMES, WORK WITH FIRE, LIVE WITH  FIRE.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE  REALLY IMPORTANT AT THE SAME TIME THAT WE'RE PREPARING  OUR COMMUNITIES AND OUR FAMILIES AND OUR  NEIGHBORHOODS FOR THE EVENTUALITY OF, YOU KNOW, A  MASSIVE, A MASSIVE FIRE.

>> Laura: TALKING NOW AT  THE END OF NOVEMBER, WE HAD THAT MONSOON SEASON, I THINK  MANY OF US WHO WEREN'T DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY FIRES  KIND OF WERE ABLE TO TAKE A BREATH.

BUT REMEMBERING WHAT THE SPRING WAS LIKE, THAT JUST  LIKE BRUTAL NONSTOP WIND AND HOW DRY IT WAS, I'M JUST   NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO THE  COMING SPRING.

>> Haffey: I KNOW, AND I  THINK EVERY YEAR -- WHAT'S HARD, TOO, IS THAT THE  SNOWPACK ISN'T GOING AS FAR AS IT USED TO.

SO EVEN IF WE GET AN AVERAGE SNOWPACK, BECAUSE OF ALL OF  THESE DIFFERENT DYNAMICS THAT ARE ALL TIED TO WARMER  TEMPERATURES, THE SNOW IS EVAPORATING AND SUBLIMATING  QUICKER, AND IT'S MELTING FASTER, AND THEN BECAUSE  WE'VE BEEN IN PERSISTENT DROUGHT -- I MEAN, WE'RE 20  SOME YEARS INTO THIS DROUGHT.

BECAUSE OF THAT, EVEN A GOOD SNOWPACK YEAR, WE HAVE SO  MUCH WATER DEBT THAT IT'S NOT GETTING PAID DOWN BY  THAT SNOWPACK.

SO EVERY YEAR, WE'RE KIND OF  FALLING FURTHER AND FURTHER BEHIND.

EVEN IF YOU LOOK UP ON THE MOUNTAINS, OR YOU'RE SKIING  OR WHATEVER, AND YOU'RE LIKE, THAT'S A HEALTHY  AMOUNT OF SNOW, IT JUST ISN'T GOING AS FAR AS IT  USED TO FOR A COMBINATION OF REASONS, AND THAT'S WHY  WE'RE STARTING TO SEE, YOU KNOW, THE FUELS AND THE  GRASS AND THE TREES AND STUFF BECOME AVAILABLE TO  BURN IN APRIL.

AND THEN ON THE MONSOON  SEASON, LIKE THAT WAS -- MONSOON SEASON THIS YEAR WAS  SUCH A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, BECAUSE, YES, IT PUT OUT  HERMITS PEAK/CALF CANYON -- I MEAN, WE WERE PREPARING IN  THE TEAMS, AND HOPING NOT, BUT PREPARING FOR THE FIRE  TO GO ALL THE WAY TO COLORADO.

YOU KNOW, WE WERE HAVING THOSE KINDS OF  CONVERSATIONS, WHICH WAS CRAZY.

AND THE MONSOON SEASON REALLY WAS THE THING THAT  STOPPED THAT FIRE AND ALLOWED US TO GET CONTROL OF  IT.

BUT THE MONSOON SEASON ALSO  BROUGHT IN SO MUCH WATER THAT PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN  THE DOWNSTREAM AREAS OF ALL OF THE FIRES, EXPERIENCED  MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF FLOODING.

AND THE SAD PART ABOUT ALL  OF THIS IN NEW MEXICO IS WE'RE JUST NOT -- I MEAN,  ACROSS THE WEST, BUT IT WAS EVIDENT IN NEW MEXICO THIS  YEAR.

WE'RE JUST NOT PREPARED AS A  COUNTRY TO DEAL WITH POST FIRE FLOODING IN THE SAME  WAY THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH THE FIRE EVENT, ITSELF.

WHEN THE FIRE STARTS, YOU HAVE THE TEAMS THAT SHOW UP,  YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- WE HAD OVER 3000 PEOPLE, ALMOST  4000 PEOPLE ON THE HERMITS PEAK/CALF CANYON AT ONE  TIME.

AFTER THE FIRE, PREPARING  FOR THE FLOODS, THERE'S ALMOST NONE OF THAT, RIGHT.

A LOT OF THIS COORDINATION FALLS ON LOCAL PEOPLE WHO  HAVE BEEN EVACUATED, MAYBE THEIR HOUSE OR THEIR FAMILY  HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY THE FIRE, AND SO THERE'S  JUST -- YOU KNOW, IN THEIR SMALL COMMUNITIES, I MEAN,  MORA AND SAN MIGUEL COUNTY, THESE ARE SMALL COMMUNITIES,  AND WE PUT ALL OF THE BURDEN ON OUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

AND OUR FEDERAL AGENCIES COME IN TO HELP, BUT  AUTHORITIES ARE LACKING.

THE STATE COMES IN, BUT WE  HAVE CAPACITY AND AUTHORITY CHALLENGES.

SO THERE'S JUST SO MANY GAPS IN THIS POST FIRE  ENVIRONMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, REALLY RESULTS IN A LOT OF  SUFFERING FROM THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS IN THOSE FLOOD  ZONES.

AND LIKE I MENTIONED, WE  WERE SUCCESSFUL IN HERMITS PEAK/CALF CANYON NOT LOSING  ANY LIVES, EVEN THOUGH WE HAD AN 11-MILE RUN, WHICH IS  INCREDIBLE, TO BE ABLE TO SAY AFTER ALL OF THIS NO ONE  DIED OR EVEN GOT SERIOUSLY INJURED AS A RESULT OF, YOU  KNOW, OF THE FIRE IN THE COMMUNITY, BUT WE LOST FOUR  PEOPLE DURING THE FLOODS.

AND THAT'S -- TO ME, THOSE  ARE ALWAYS VERY PREVENTABLE EVENTS.

AND PARTLY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THAT COORDINATION, AND  PARTLY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE ADDED CAPACITY AFTER A  FIRE, IT'S REALLY PUTTING OUR COMMUNITIES AT RISK.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE NEXT FIRE SEASON, IT'S ALSO  IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT COMES WITH THE NEXT  FLOOD SEASON.

SO FOLKS IN THE AREAS THAT  ARE DOWNSTREAM OF THE BURN SCARS ARE STILL GOING TO  HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE MONSOONAL FLOODING IN 2023,  '24, AND BEYOND.

I MEAN, IT'S STILL FLOODING  UP IN LAS CONCHAS, AS YOU KNOW.

NOT AS BAD, BUT TEN YEARS LATER.

SO THAT'S THE HARD PART ABOUT THIS, IS HOW DO WE  REBUILD THE NECESSARY INFRASTRUCTURE, LIKE  ACEQUIAS AND DRINKING WATER AND THINGS LIKE THAT THAT  CAN SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY, AND ALSO KEEP THE COMMUNITY  SAFE DURING THE MONSOON SEASON WHERE, UNFORTUNATELY,  FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS WE'RE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH  FLOODING.

>> Laura:   SO I WANTED TO PIVOT BRIEFLY TO PRESCRIBED  FIRES, AND I JUST WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE, YOU WORK FOR  THE STATE, AND THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE IS A  DIFFERENT AGENCY.

>> Haffey: I DO NOT WORK  FOR THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE.

>> Laura: I JUST WANT TO  PUT THAT OUT THERE.

SO WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT  PRESCRIBED FIRE, THIS SUMMER WE HAD YOUR BOSS, STATE  FORESTER LAURA McCARTHY ON, AND SHE TALKED ABOUT  PRESCRIBED FIRE AND SOME OF THE LESSONS WE LEARNED THIS  YEAR.

AND ONE THING THAT I KEEP  THINKING ABOUT THAT SHE MENTIONED WAS HOW CLIMATE  CHANGE HAS OUTPACED OUR PRESCRIBED FIRE PROTOCOLS.

AND SHE TALKED ABOUT ADDING NEW LAYERS OF CONTINGENCY TO  PLANNING SO THAT WHEN YOU'RE PLANNING YOUR PRESCRIBED  FIRE, YOU'RE NOT JUST THINKING ABOUT THE AREA  YOU'RE EXPECTING TO BURN, BUT THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT  FUELS AND HUMIDITY AND TEMPERATURE AND ALL THAT IN  THE AREAS WHERE THE EMBERS MIGHT COME OUT.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD MAYBE EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT  MORE ABOUT THE USE OF PRESCRIBED FIRE AND WHAT WE  MIGHT NEED TO LOOK FORWARD TO INTO THE FUTURE.

>> Haffey: YEAH.

I MEAN, PRESCRIBED FIRE IS  STILL GOING TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL  TOOL, AND I THINK LAURA AND I AND OUR LEADERSHIP IN THE  STATE STILL AGREE WITH THAT.

WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT THE  REALITIES OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAS DISPENSAS ESCAPE  WHICH CAUSED THE HERMITS PEAK FIRE, AND WE RECOGNIZE  THAT THAT IS BOTH A -- THERE'S A CALL FROM THE  COMMUNITIES AND FROM THE LEADERSHIP TO MAKE SURE THAT  WE'RE RESPONDING APPROPRIATELY TO THAT AND  WE'RE WORKING WITH OUR PARTNERS TO DO THAT, AND  THEN MAKING SURE THAT WE ALSO TAKE A MOMENT TO PAUSE  AND SAY, WHAT CAN WE IMPROVE IN THE PRESCRIBED FIRE  RESPONSE?

SO THE FOREST SERVICE HAS  GONE THROUGH AND THEY'VE DONE -- THEY ISSUED A  REPORT, AND IT HAS SOME SUGGESTIONS, AND ONE OF THEM  ACTUALLY IS SIMILAR TO WHAT LAURA WAS TALKING ABOUT,  WHERE WE'RE LOOKING AT EXPANDING   OUR SORT OF FOCUS AREA WHEN WE LOOK AT DOING  PRESCRIBED BURNING.

SO NOT ONLY ARE WE LOOKING  AT THE AREA THAT WE WANT TO ACTIVELY BURN, BUT WE'RE  LOOKING AT CONTINGENCY LINES AND CONTINGENCY AREAS WHERE  THE FIRE MIGHT GO IF IT WERE TO ESCAPE, SO THAT IF IT  DOES GO INTO -- IF A FIRE DOES GO INTO ONE OF THOSE  AREAS, PERHAPS THAT AREA IS ANOTHER THOUSAND FEET LOWER  IN ELEVATION.

WELL, THAT COULD BE  SIGNIFICANTLY DRIER, AND THAT MEANS THAT YOU'RE GOING  TO HAVE DIFFERENT FIRE BEHAVIOR AND DIFFERENT  SUPPRESSION EFFECTIVENESS IN THAT AREA TRYING TO CONTROL  THAT ESCAPE.

SO IT'S ABOUT ACCOUNTING AND  PLANNING FOR WHAT-IFS IN THIS SITUATION, ESPECIALLY  WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO DO BURNS IN MORE COMPLICATED  AREAS AND IN CONDITIONS WHERE THE FUELS ARE SUCH  THAT THE WINDOW TO BURN, THE OPPORTUNITIES TO BURN, ARE  VERY NARROW.

AND SO YOU HAVE TO -- YOU  ONLY HAVE A FEW DAYS A YEAR IN WHICH SOME OF THESE AREAS  ARE AVAILABLE, AND SO IF YOU WANT TO BURN IN THOSE SPOTS,  YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE WHEN THOSE AREAS ARE  AVAILABLE, THE REST OF THE FUEL TYPE AND THE REST OF  THE VEGETATION AROUND IT IS ALSO LIKELY AVAILABLE.

AND SO JUST PLANNING FOR BOTH THE ACTUAL BURN AND  THEN THE CONTINGENCY IS, AGAIN, IT'S JUST A WAY OF  MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE DOING OUR DUE DILIGENCE, BUT ALSO  ACCOUNTING FOR CHANGING CONDITIONS IN THIS SORT OF  NEW ENVIRONMENT THAT WE'RE OPERATING IN.

>> Laura: THANKS, COLLIN, I APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE  TODAY.

>> Haffey: THANKS, LAURA.

HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> Laura:   EVEN THOUGH OUR EXPERIENCES DO NOT COMPARE  WITH THOSE WHO LOST THEIR HOMES, EVEN NEW MEXICO PBS  WAS AFFECTED BY FIRES THIS SUMMER.

¶¶ >> Quinn: WE ARE IN MORA,  NEW MEXICO, AND WE ARE SITTING ON TOP OF THE ONLY  TRANSMISSION FACILITY IN THIS PART OF THE STATE.

SO THE CALF CANYON AND HERMITS PEAK FIRE SWEPT  THROUGH THIS AREA.

IT BURNED THE ENTIRE  FACILITY, 29 POWER POLES, ALL THE WIRES, AND IT BURNED  OUR FACILITY COMPLETELY TO THE GROUND, ASHES.

SO TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

SO WE KNEW THAT WE HAD A FEW  FACILITIES IN THE STATE THAT WERE IN THE PATH OF THE  FIRE, AND THIS WAS ONE THAT WE EXPECTED TO LOSE.

THE DAY WE DID, THE WINDS WERE REPORTED TO BE IN  EXCESS OF 70 MILES AN HOUR UP HERE, AND THE FIRE  SKIPPED THROUGH QUICKLY.

IT WAS THE WORST CASE  SCENARIO FOR US.

FIRST THING IS, IT WAS SAD.

¶¶ >>   Quinn:   YOU COME UP TO AN  AREA LIKE THIS AND THE LAND THAT'S BEEN SO WELL TAKEN  CARE OF BY THE OWNER, TO A FACILITY I'VE COME TO FOR A  DECADE.

I GOT TO KNOW THE ANIMALS.

THIS IS A PLACE I WOULD COME, AND HORNED LIZARDS  WOULD COME OUT FROM UNDER THE BUILDING AND WE WOULD  SEE ALL THAT.

AND NOW IT'S GONE.

¶¶ >> Quinn:   IT'S INCREDIBLY SAD.

BUT THEN THE NEXT THING THAT COMES TO ME IS, HOW DO WE  GET IT BACK.

HOW DO WE GET BACK TO WHERE  WE NEED TO BE AND HOW DO WE GET OPERATING AS QUICK AS WE  CAN, AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

WE, INSTEAD OF LAMENTING OUR  LOSS, WE JUST LOOKED TO THE FUTURE AND WE'VE ALREADY SET  A NEW BUILDING ON THE GROUND.

THERE'S NOT EVEN POWER ON THE MOUNTAIN YET.

THE KNME TOWER IS RIGHT BEHIND US, AND THE OTHER  FACILITIES UP HERE, WE'VE GOT STATE WEATHER, INTERNET  SERVICE FOR THE AREA, AND THEN MAJOR CARRIERS FOR THE  CELL PHONES ARE IN THE OTHER TWO REMAINING TOWERS.

THE KNME TOWER HERE IS THE LAST LINK IN WHAT WE CALL A  DAISY CHAIN.

WE FEED APACHE MESA, WHICH  IS TECOLOTE, DIRECTLY FROM SANDIA CREST, AND THEN THAT,  IN TURN, FEEDS THIS TOWER.

SO WHEN THIS TOWER WAS DOWN,  THERE WAS NO TELEVISION TO THE ENTIRE VALLEY.

THAT WOULD INCLUDE COMMERCIAL CARRIERS.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE VERY USED TO, AND WE HAVE BEEN FOR A  LONG TIME, WE TURN THE BUTTON ON AND THAT'S THE  LAST THING WE DO.

IF IT DOESN'T WORK, YOU RAGE  AT THE MACHINE.

BUT THERE'S AN INCREDIBLE  AMOUNT OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

TO TURN MY ONE BUILDING ON  HERE, RIGHT NOW I'M GOING TO -- JUST DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN  THIS, THERE'S PROBABLY BEEN SEVERAL HUNDRED, 200 OR 300  PEOPLE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE EFFORT THAT JUST ALLOWS  US TO STAND ON THE TOP OF THIS HILL TODAY.

THERE'S PEOPLE GOING FORWARD FROM INSURANCE COMPANIES,  ALL THE SUPPLIERS OF THE EQUIPMENT WE USE.

THIS IS MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO PUT  ME HERE, TO TURN IT ON, TO PROVIDE A SIGNAL FOR  ENTERTAINMENT OR EDUCATION FOR PEOPLE.

IT SEEMS EASY, BUT THERE'S A FULL-TIME 365-DAY-A-YEAR  COMMITMENT TO THE WORK THAT'S REQUIRED TO MAKE US  RELIABLE.

YOU CAN SEE THE POWER LINES ARE CUT TO A DEGREE THROUGH  PROPERTIES TO PROVIDE SOME EASEMENT, ONE FOR  CONSTRUCTION, BUT THE OTHER IS TO GIVE THEM A BUFFER  FROM FIRES.

THE SAME THING HAPPENS ON  THE HILLTOP.

WE DON'T JUST CLEAR THEM OUT  FOR EASE FOR US, BUT WE CLEAR THEM OUT TO KEEP FIRE  BACK.

THE AREAS ARE TYPICALLY  MAINTAINED LOW BRUSH.

WE TRY TO FIND AREAS THAT  CAN TAKE A FIRE AND THEN BOUNCE RIGHT BACK.

YOU CANNOT PROTECT COMPLETELY, ESPECIALLY IN A  FORESTED ENVIRONMENT, BUT YOU CAN MITIGATE AS MUCH AS  YOU CAN BY BEING A GOOD TENANT AND THEN HAVING --  JUST HAVING A PLAN IN PLACE FOR WHEN IT HAPPENS.

¶¶ >> Quinn:   WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SEE FOREST FIRES  LIKE THIS AS THE CLIMATE IS DRYER.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE WORSE, THEY'RE GOING TO BE MORE OUT  OF CONTROL.

WE NEED TO BE   GOOD STEWARDS OF OUR FORESTS.

AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE -- WHEN IT'S OUT OF SIGHT, IT'S  OUT OF MIND, BUT WE NEED TO START LOOKING AT WHAT'S OVER  THAT HILL AND HOW CAN WE PREPARE FOR THE SUPER FIRE  THAT'S COMING THROUGH HERE TOMORROW.

¶¶ >> Laura:   THIS SPRING, THE RIO GRANDE DRIED SOUTH OF  ALBUQUERQUE LIKE IT OFTEN DOES DURING IRRIGATION  SEASON.

BY JULY, THE DRYING ALSO  CREPT INTO ALBUQUERQUE.

MEANWHILE, SEVEN WESTERN  STATES, INCLUDING NEW MEXICO, ARE SCRAMBLING OVER  WATER SHORTAGES ON THE COLORADO RIVER.

AS THE ARID SOUTHWEST BECOMES WARMER, IT ALSO  BECOMES DRIER, BUT THERE’S MORE TO THE WATER CRISIS  THAN SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

GEOGRAPHER ANDREW CURLEY  EXPLAINS THAT RIVERS HAVE BEEN IN A STATE OF CRISIS  FOR A CENTURY, EVEN MORE, SINCE STATES SIGNED COMPACTS  DIVVYING UP THEIR WATERS AND BUILT LARGE-SCALE DAMS TO  SUPPLY CITIES AND LARGE IRRIGATION DISTRICTS.

UP NEXT, CURLEY ALSO TALKS ABOUT HOW INDIGENOUS PEOPLE  HAD THEIR LIVES, LANDSCAPES, AND CULTURES UPENDED BY  THESE DAMS, RESERVOIRS AND DIVERSIONS.

AS CURLEY EXPLAINS, IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, INDIGENOUS  PEOPLE HAVE MADE NEW WORLDS THROUGH INNOVATIVE SOCIAL,  POLITICAL AND CULTURAL STRATEGIES.

>> Laura: I WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE  ABOUT THE COLORADO RIVER, WHICH IS BASICALLY, YOU  KNOW, IN CRISIS MODE RIGHT NOW FOR CITIES AND  IRRIGATION DISTRICTS.

THERE'S MORE OF A DEMAND FOR  WATER THAN THERE IS SUPPLY RIGHT NOW.

YOU'VE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE CENTRAL ARIZONA  PROJECT, AND I HEARD YOU SPEAK RECENTLY ABOUT  SCARCITY AND HOW WE DON'T TALK ENOUGH ABOUT HOW DAMS  AND RESERVOIRS ARE WHAT YOU CALLED THE CONCRETE  MANIFESTATIONS OF COLONIALIST AMBITIONS, AND  HOW THEY CONTRIBUTE TO DROUGHT AND TO THIS  NARRATIVE OF DROUGHT, A NARRATIVE OF CRISIS.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THAT A LITTLE BIT?

>> Curley: WHEN THE BOULDER CANYON ACT WAS PASSED, WHEN  THE HOOVER DAM WAS CONSTRUCTED, THERE'S ALL  THIS MYTHOLOGY AND LORE ABOUT THE CONSTRUCTION OF  THESE INFRASTRUCTURES, AND THEN EVENTUALLY GLEN CANYON  DAM, PARKER DAM, THE CENTRAL ARIZONA PROJECT, ALL OF  THESE DAMS ALONG THE LOWER BASIN PART OF THE COLORADO  RIVER, THESE DAMS -- WE WEREN'T ASKING QUESTIONS  ABOUT, OH, THIS IS TOO EXPENSIVE, THIS IS NOT  SERVING ENOUGH PEOPLE, YOU KNOW.

IT WAS ALL ABOUT FUTURE-ORIENTED IDEOLOGY,  LIKE, OH, WE NEED TO CREATE C.A.P.

IN ORDER FOR PHOENIX  TO GROW, WE NEED TO BUILD THESE DAMS IN ORDER FOR THE  SOUTHWEST TO BLOSSOM.

THE PROBLEM, YOU KNOW,  OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A DIFFERENT STANDARD BEING  APPLIED WHEN YOU'RE TALKING INFRASTRUCTURES THAT SERVE  WHITE COMMUNITIES AS OPPOSED TO INFRASTRUCTURES THAT  SERVE NATIVE COMMUNITIES, AND YOU CAN GUESS WHAT THE  REASON IS FOR THOSE DOUBLE STANDARDS.

AND SO WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE HOOVER  DAM, WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE C.A.P.

AND  THE CRISIS WE'RE IN NOW AND THE DROUGHT AND THE EFFECTS  OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE COLORADO RIVER, THAT'S  SOMETHING LIKE -- YOU KNOW,  WHEN YOU INTRODUCED THIS QUESTION, YOU SAID, THE  RIVER IS IN CRISIS FOR X AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, WATER  DISTRICTS, THESE PEOPLE, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE  BEEN BENEFITING FROM THESE COLONIAL DIVERSIONS FOR  QUITE SOME TIME.

AND IF YOU TAKE IT FROM AN  INDIGENOUS PERSPECTIVE, IF YOU TAKE IT FROM A NAVAJO  PERSPECTIVE, A DINE PERSPECTIVE OR A HOPI  PERSPECTIVE, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT THAT RIVER HAS BEEN  IN CRISIS FOR QUITE SOME TIME GOING BACK TO THESE  FIRST INCURSIONS INTO THE REGION, GOING BACK TO THE  CONSTRUCTION OF THE ROOSEVELT DAM ALONG THE SALT  RIVER.

ONCE THE COLONISTS CAME IN  AND STARTED TO DAM THE RIVER AND CHANGE THE ECOLOGY,  THAT'S WHEN THE RIVER STARTED TO GO INTO CRISIS.

THAT'S KIND OF THE ORIGIN OF CLIMATE CHANGE IN THE  REGION.

IT DID AFFECT THE CLIMATE,  IT AFFECTED THE RIVER, IT AFFECTED THE ECOLOGIES OF  THE REGION.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE  TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CLIMATE  CHANGE.

SO WE CAN'T DIVORCE THESE  INFRASTRUCTURES FROM THE CONSIDERATION OF CLIMATE  CHANGE.

SO IN THE PRESENTATION, I  SHOW ACTUALLY THAT'S WHAT -- WE INCLUDE THESE  INFRASTRUCTURES WHEN THINKING ABOUT THE EFFECT-S  OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

WE LOOK AT RESERVOIR LEVELS  AND WE SAY, OH, LOOK, THERE'S CLIMATE CHANGE HERE  BECAUSE THE RESERVOIRS ARE SINKING.

WELL, THOSE RESERVOIRS ARE THOSE COLONIAL INTRUSIONS IN  THE FIRST PLACE.

THEY'RE NOT NATURAL.

THE RIVER WAS NEVER MEANT TO SIT THE WAY IT DOES BEHIND  THE WALLS OF THESE DAMS.

SO THAT ITSELF IS THE ORIGIN  OF THE PROBLEM BEYOND THIS LARGER QUESTION OF DECLINING  SNOWPACK OR FASTER MELTING SNOWPACK OR PROLONGED  DROUGHT IN THE REGION.

I MEAN, THOSE THINGS ARE  ALSO IMPORTANT, BUT WHAT WE'RE NOT CONSIDERING ARE  THE EFFECTS OF THESE DAMS.

THAT WAS KIND OF THE POINT I  WAS TRYING TO MAKE, IS YOU LOOK AT EVEN HOW WE TALK  ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, WE TALK ABOUT THE COLORADO  RIVER AND IT BEING ENDANGERED, AND IT'S LIKE,  WHEN THE ORIGIN POINT OF THAT ENDANGERMENT BEGINS IN  MOST PEOPLES' MINDS IS FAIRLY RECENTLY.

IT DOESN'T GO BACK TO THE COLORADO COMPACT.

I FEEL ARGUABLY THE COLORADO COMPACT HAS HAD MORE IMPACT  ON THE COLORADO RIVER THAN THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE  CHANGE THUS FAR, AND SO WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT  THAT.

>> Laura: YEAH.

AND IN SORT OF TALKING ABOUT THESE MYTHS AND THESE  DIFFERENT NARRATIVES, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE  KIND OF ACROSS THE NEWS MEDIA, THERE'S A LOT OF DOOM  OR TALK ABOUT APOCALYPSE, AND YOU AND MANY OTHERS  POINT OUT THAT THAT'S REALLY A EUROCENTRIC NARRATIVE  AROUND NATURE AND AROUND CLIMATE CATASTROPHE.

WHAT DOES THAT MISS OUT ON?

WHAT IS THAT LACKING?

HOW COULD THAT BE DIFFERENT?

HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT?

>> Curley: I'M NOT THE  FIRST ONE TO COME UP WITH THIS POINT.

MANY OTHER INDIGENOUS SCHOLARS AND ENVIRONMENTAL  HISTORIANS, EVEN, HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW THE WAY WE  UNDERSTAND TIME AND PROGRESS AND FUTURE CATASTROPHE, IT  IS NEGLECTING WHAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF INDIGENOUS  NATIONS, WHAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE ON THE  GROUND, OR PEOPLE THAT ARE SUCKED UP INTO THESE SYSTEMS  WHEN WORLDS END.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THESE  WORLD-ENDING EXPERIENCES FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALREADY  HAPPENED.

SO YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT  APOCALYPSE AND YOUR IMAGINATION IS IMAGINING THE  END OF THE WORLD FOR A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND  USUALLY THEY'RE SUBURBAN OR AFFLUENT OR, YOU KNOW, CITY  PEOPLE OR POLITICIANS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IN THE  MINDS OF PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS  APOCALYPSE IN THE FUTURE OR THE DANGER OF THE RIVERS.

BUT WHAT ENDS UP BEING NEGLECTED IS KIND OF THESE  PAST INTRUSIONS.

AND SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING  ABOUT THE DAMMING UP OF, LIKE, THE MISSOURI RIVER,  RIGHT, WITH THE PICK-SLOAN ACT, AND THE FLOODING OF  HUNDREDS OF ACRES OF INDIGENOUS LAND THAT WAS  GUARANTEED THROUGH TREATY, THAT IS A WORLD-CHANGING  EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS AN APOCALYPSE OF  SORTS.

AND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING  ABOUT THE BUILDING OF THESE DAMS ALONG THE NAVAJO NATION  AND THE LAND SWAPS INVOLVED IN ORDER TO GET A LAKE  POWELL AND TO STILL MAINTAIN A LAND BASE IN NAVAJO  NATION, THESE ARE APOCALYPTIC SCENARIOS, AND  OFTEN THEY HAPPENED WITH DAMS AND WITH THE WAY WE  TREAT WATER IN THE WEST.

WE'VE CREATED THESE HUGE  WORLD-CHANGING INFRASTRUCTURES THROUGHOUT  THE REGION THAT HAVE ALSO CONTRIBUTED TO THE CHANGING  OF THE LANDSCAPE, THE URBAN LANDSCAPE.

YOU KNOW, EVEN GOING THROUGH PHOENIX OR ALBUQUERQUE OR  SANTA FE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, YOU SEE CITIES  GROWING AND GROWING AND GROWING MADE POSSIBLE BY  THESE INFRASTRUCTURES.

SO THE WORLDS ARE ALWAYS  CHANGING AROUND US.

AND WHAT IS MISSED BY THIS  FEAR OF WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE END OF THE WORLD DUE TO  CLIMATE CHANGE IS REALLY THE KIND OF INNOVATIVE, BOTH  SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND CULTURAL STRATEGIES  INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE HAD, AND HAVE BEEN MADE TO HAVE  IN ORDER TO SURVIVE ACROSS ALL OF THESE APOCALYPTIC  EVENTS, YOU KNOW.

WE'VE DEALT WITH ALL SORTS  OF WORST-CASE SCENARIOS, EVEN BEING MOVED PHYSICALLY  OFF OF OUR LAND AT THE END OF A BAYONET TO, YOU KNOW,  INTO BOSQUE REDONDO ON THE EASTERN END OF NEW MEXICO.

THAT'S BETWEEN 1862 AND 1868.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN APOCALYPSE MOMENT FOR US,  AND WE SURVIVED THAT AND WE OVERCAME THAT, AND WE MADE A  NEW WORLD IN THE NAVAJO NATION AFTER THAT.

SO THERE'S A LOT TO LEARN FROM INDIGENOUS PEOPLES'  ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THESE CATASTROPHES AND TO THINK  ABOUT WHAT ARE THE VALUES OF A SOCIETY THAT IS -- THAT  HAS HAD TO OVERCOME ALL THESE MARGINALIZATIONS AND  YET CONTINUES TO SURVIVE.

AND COMPARE THAT TO THE  VALUES OF A SOCIETY THAT ARE CAUSING THOSE PROBLEMS, THAT  ARE CAUSING THESE CATASTROPHES TO OCCUR IN THE  FIRST PLACE.

AND THEN MAYBE RATHER THAN  THINKING ABOUT TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS, WE THINK OF  POLITICAL AND ETHICAL SOLUTIONS, RIGHT?

WE THINK ABOUT HOW WE TREAT THE PLANET ETHICALLY FIRST  BEFORE WE THINK ABOUT THINGS TECHNICALLY, AND I THINK  THAT GEARS US IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAN IF  WE CONTINUE TO HAVE THIS MODERNIST AND EUROCENTRIC  IDEA OF TIME, OF PROGRESS AND TECHNICAL INNOVATION,  AND WE HAVE CRISIS AND THEN SOLUTION TO THOSE CRISES IS  MORE TECHNOLOGY, IMPROVED TECHNOLOGY.

WHEN WE'RE THINKING ALONG THOSE LINES, WE END UP NOT  ONLY CREATING MORE PROBLEMS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO CREATE  NEW KIND OF INDUSTRIES TO SERVE THESE NEW ONES, WE  PERPETUATE EXISTING INEQUALITIES.

WHEN WE'RE VALUING TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION  OVER SOCIAL DIRECTIONALITY AND WHAT ARE THE VALUES OF A  SOCIETY, THEN WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT OTHER KINDS OF  SOLUTIONS.

HOW DO WE WORK ON SOCIAL,  POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC INEQUALITIES AT THE SAME  TIME WHILE WE'RE DEALING WITH THINGS THAT ARE SEEN TO  BE IN THE REALM OF THE ENVIRONMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL  CRISES.

AND I THINK THAT IS KIND OF  THE LARGER MORE, I GUESS, PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION THAT  WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT  THESE IDEAS OF APOCALYPSE.

SO I'M SORRY, THAT'S A  REALLY LONG-WINDED ANSWER, AND IT FEELS LIKE IT'S  LEADING WITH THIS KIND OF VAGUE IDEA OF WHAT TO DO IN  PEOPLES' MINDS, BUT THAT'S BASICALLY WHERE I'M AT WITH  HOW WE WERE THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS, ME AND OTHER  PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS.

>> Laura: WELL, THANK YOU, PROFESSOR CURLEY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Curley: YES, YOU'RE  WELCOME.

>> Laura: TO BETTER  UNDERSTAND WHAT WE KNOW AND DON’T KNOW ABOUT WATER IN  NEW MEXICO, HERE’S  HYDROLOGIST STACY TIMMONS.

>> Laura: STACY TIMMONS,  THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Timmons: YES, THANK YOU.

>> Laura: SO I WANTED TO JUST START RIGHT OFF.

IN TERMS OF WATER, WHAT LESSONS DID WE MAYBE LEARN  IN 2022?

LIKE, WHAT REALLY STOOD OUT  IN 2022?

>> Timmons: I FEEL LIKE  2022 IS YET ANOTHER REMINDER FOR US THAT WE LIVE IN A  DESERT STATE AND WE'RE FACING SOME PRETTY  SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO OUR WATER AND TO OUR CLIMATE.

WE SAW IN 2022 FIRES OF EXTREME MAGNITUDE, WE SAW  SECTIONS OF RIVER DRYING THAT HADN'T DRIED IN TENS OF  YEARS, WE'VE SEEN WELLS GOING DRY IN PLACES AROUND  THE STATE, AND I BELIEVE IT'S A REAL WAKE-UP CALL FOR  US TO KIND OF PAY MORE ATTENTION AND ACCEPT THE  FACT THAT IT ISN'T JUST LIKE CHANGING OFF IN THE FUTURE,  BUT IT'S CHANGING LIKE NOW.

WE'RE IN IT, AND WE REALLY  NEED TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE PREPARED GOING FORWARD WITH  HOW WE'RE GOING TO FACE THOSE BIG CHANGES.

>> Laura: SO YOU WERE A KEY MOTIVATION BEHIND THE STATE  LEGISLATURE PASSING A WATER DATA ACT A FEW YEARS AGO,  AND I'M CURIOUS, SINCE PASSAGE OF THAT LAW, WHAT  ARE SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE'VE  LEARNED ABOUT OUR WATER CHALLENGES AND MAYBE, LIKE,  WHERE WE NEED TO GO?

>> Timmons: YEAH, I THINK  KIND OF STEPPING BACK JUST A LITTLE BIT AND TALKING ABOUT  THE CLIMATE IMPACTS THAT WE'RE FACING, WHAT WE'RE  SEEING IN THE WATER DATA AND IN A LOT OF THE RESEARCH  THAT'S BEEN DONE IS THAT WE'RE FACING FIVE TO SEVEN  DEGREES WARMING, FIVE TO SEVEN DEGREES FAHRENHEIT  WARMING TEMPERATURES HERE IN NEW MEXICO OVER THE NEXT 50  YEARS, AND WITH THAT COMES INCREASING ARIDITY, SO THE  AIR IS DRIER AND TAKING OUT MORE OF OUR WATER, WE'RE  SEEING REDUCED SNOWPACK AND REDUCED STREAM WATER FLOW  AND RESERVOIR STORAGE, AND WITH THAT ALSO COMES IMPACTS  TO OUR GROUNDWATER RESOURCES IN TERMS OF INCREASED  PUMPING AND MORE USE OF GROUNDWATER, AND ALSO  REDUCED RECHARGE TO THOSE AQUIFERS BECAUSE THERE'S  LESS WATER IN THE STREAMS AND RIVERS.

SO ALL OF THAT ALSO PLAYS OUT IN TERMS THE FIRES THAT  WE'RE SEEING AND THE LANDSCAPE CHANGES.

AS I SEE IT, LOOKING AT THOSE FEATURES THAT WE'RE  FACING NOW, WE'RE IN SOME WAYS MOVING LIKE WE ARE IN A  CAR WITHOUT A GAS GAUGE IN TERMS OF OUR WATER.

SO WE'RE MOVING AHEAD IN SOME WAYS NOT KNOWING IN  REAL DETAIL HOW MUCH WATER WE HAVE TO WORK WITH.

AND THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON, I THINK, AROUND THE NATION AND  AROUND THE EARTH.

THERE'S PLACES WHERE WE CAN  OPERATE LIKE THAT.

BUT HERE IN THE DESERT  SOUTHWEST, WHERE IT WAS ALREADY DRY AND NOW  INCREASINGLY DRY, I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A BETTER HANDLE  ON EXACTLY HOW MUCH WATER WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO US TO USE.

AND SO WITH THE WATER DATA ACT, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY  FOR US TO REALLY MORE FINELY TUNE EXACTLY HOW MUCH WATER  IS AVAILABLE FOR OUR DIFFERENT USES.

AND SO THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK FROM VARIOUS AGENCIES  HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

THE NEW MEXICO BUREAU OF  GEOLOGY AND MINERAL RESOURCES, WHERE I WORK, IS  SET AS A CONVENING AGENCY AMONGST SEVERAL STATE  AGENCIES TO REALLY WORK TO IMPROVE HOW WE COLLECT OUR  WATER DATA, HOW WE MANAGE IT INTERNALLY, AND THEN HOW WE  SHARE IT OUT FOR OTHER USES.

AND WE'VE DONE A LOT TO  CHARACTERIZE THE DATA THAT ARE BEING COLLECTED.

SO EVERYTHING FROM WATER QUALITY AND PUBLIC WATER  SYSTEMS, TO SNOWPACK TO STREAM FLOW AND RESERVOIR  STORAGE, TO IN SOME PLACES REALLY GOOD GROUNDWATER  LEVEL MEASUREMENTS AROUND THE STATE.

BUT IN DOING THAT, WE'RE ALSO SEEING THAT THERE ARE  SOME TREMENDOUS GAPS.

SO AS WE MOVE FORWARD IN  THIS NEW PARADIGM OF INCREASED WATER SCARCITY, I  THINK WE NEED TO HAVE AN EVEN BETTER HANDLE ON  EXACTLY HOW MUCH WATER WE HAVE.

AND SO SOME OF THE DATA GAPS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE  WORK THAT WE'VE DONE WITH THE WATER DATA ACT INCLUDE  REALLY HAVING A CAREFUL HANDLE ON OUR AQUIFER  CAPACITY AND HOW MUCH WATER IS AVAILABLE THERE, AND HOW  MUCH CHANGES ARE HAPPENING WITHIN THOSE RESERVOIRS  BENEATH THE GROUND.

AND THEN WE'RE ALSO SEEING  SOME GAPS IN TERMS OF HOW WATER IS USED AROUND THE  STATE.

AND SO I THINK A LOT OF THE  WORK THAT WE'VE DONE SO FAR WITH THE WATER DATA ACT  REALLY HIGHLIGHTS SOME OF THE PLACES WHERE WE NEED TO  PUT MORE TIME AND ENERGY INTO MONITORING AND TRACKING  OUR WATER RESOURCES.

>> Laura: SO YOU MENTIONED  GROUNDWATER.

A GRAPHIC THAT YOU SHARED  WITH ME THAT WE'LL PUT UP SHOWS GROUNDWATER DIVERSIONS  APPROVED BY THE STATE SINCE 1900 THROUGH TODAY.

IT'S LIKE A SHOCKING GRAPHIC TO KIND OF GO THROUGH.

WHAT LIKE JUMPED OUT AT YOU WHEN YOU SAW THAT DATA?

>> Timmons: TO ME, IT JUST REALLY HIGHLIGHTS HOW MANY  PLACES WHERE -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DENSITY OF WELLS  THAT ARE POTENTIALLY EXTRACTING GROUNDWATER THAT  CAN HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE AQUIFER AND ON EACH OTHER,  AND SO PAYING REALLY CLOSE ATTENTION TO EXACTLY THE  TRENDS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN GROUNDWATER LEVELS IN THOSE  AREAS WHERE THERE'S A HIGH DENSITY OF WELLS.

AND THEN ALSO, SOME OF THE PLACES THAT JUMPED OUT TO ME  ON THAT GRAPHIC IS, THERE ARE SOME PLACES WHERE WE  JUST HAVE NO WELLS AND NO INFORMATION ON OUR AQUIFERS.

SO THERE'S SOME REAL NEED FOR REALLY FURTHER  CHARACTERIZING THE USE OF WATER IN OUR URBAN AREAS,  BUT THEN ALSO TRYING TO BETTER UNDERSTAND WHAT'S  GOING ON IN SOME OF OUR MORE REMOTE AND RURAL AREAS IN  TERMS OF GROUNDWATER.

SO YEAH, IT'S AN INTERESTING  GRAPHIC TO KIND OF STARE AT FOR A WHILE.

>> Laura: YEAH, AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT ALWAYS FAIR TO ASK PEOPLE THIS  QUESTION, BUT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW, HOW DO WE MANAGE  OUR REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS FOR THE FUTURE?

LIKE, LOTS OF PLACES, THERE'S TALK ABOUT MANAGED  RETREAT ALONG COASTAL AREAS.

IS MANAGED RETREAT SOMETHING  WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT FOR ARID PLACES, FOR CERTAIN  AREAS, OR THE WILD AND URBAN INTERFACE?

LIKE, WHAT CONVERSATIONS DO YOU FEEL LIKE WE'RE NOT  QUITE HAVING IN THE STATE YET?

>> Timmons: I GUESS I FEEL LIKE MANAGED RETREAT IN THE  CONTEXT OF NEW MEXICO ISN'T REALLY AN OPTION.

LIKE, WE NEED TO PROBABLY THINK ABOUT MORE CAREFULLY  HOW WE'RE GOING TO MAKE DO WITH LESS AND WHAT KIND OF  CHANGES WE'RE WILLING TO MAKE.

AND I KNOW CHANGE IS REALLY HARD AS A HUMAN CONDITION TO  FACE UNTIL SOMETHING REALLY PUSHES US TO DO THAT, AND SO  I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF -- I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE  OPPORTUNITY, AND I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT THERE ARE  WAYS THAT WE CAN BEGIN TO THRIVE UNDER THE WATER  CONDITIONS THAT WE HAVE WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE OR  WITHOUT HAVING TO KIND OF CHANGE WHERE WE LIVE AND HOW  WE OPERATE.

THERE'S JUST SO MANY WAYS  THAT WE CAN WORK TOGETHER TO COLLECTIVELY SHARE THE  RESOURCE AND APPRECIATE IT MORE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES TO MY MIND IS, YOU  KNOW, COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN WATER  SHORTAGES, ONCE THEY BEGIN TO SEE HOW MUCH WATER  EXACTLY THEY HAVE TO SHARE THROUGH DATA COLLECTION, IN  PARTICULAR -- SO IN THE ACEQUIA COMMUNITIES, FOR  EXAMPLE, WHEN THEY'VE INSTALLED A FLUE AND A DATA  RECORDER, THE COMMUNITIES ARE MORE READILY ABLE TO SEE  EXACTLY HOW MUCH WATER IS AVAILABLE AND MORE  ACCURATELY DISTRIBUTE IT, SO THAT EVERYONE HAS A PIECE OF  THAT LIMITED SUPPLY.

SO I THINK THAT THERE'S  OPPORTUNITIES TO BRING IT BACK TO BETTER UNDERSTANDING  OF THE WATER RESOURCES AND BETTER UTILIZATION OF THOSE  WATER RESOURCES, RATHER THAN PERHAPS HAVING TO MOVE AWAY  FROM PLACES THAT WE'VE GROWN TO LOVE AND EXPERIENCE HERE  IN NEW MEXICO.

>> Laura: SO IT SOUNDS TO  ME LIKE THE MORE WE KNOW,  THE BETTER WE CAN PREPARE.

>> Timmons: YEAH.

THERE'S A SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T MANAGE WHAT WE  DON'T MEASURE.

AND I THINK SIMILARLY WITH  WATER DATA, I THINK THERE'S -- YOU KNOW, WE  CAN'T MANEUVER QUICKLY, WE CAN'T MAKE QUICK DECISIONS  IF WE DON'T HAVE DATA QUICKLY AT OUR FINGERTIPS.

SO THERE'S A LOT THAT WE NEED TO DO IN THE DATA  SECTOR, WHICH HAS KIND OF FALLEN BEHIND SOME OF THE  OTHER REALMS OF DATA AND TECHNOLOGY.

THERE'S A LOT WE NEED TO DO TO MODERNIZE WHERE WE'RE AT  WITH ACCESS TO OUR WATER DATA, SO THAT WE CAN BE MORE  MALLEABLE AND ABLE TO SHIFT AND CHANGE AS THINGS CHANGE  AROUND US.

>> Laura:   WELL, THANKS STACY.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Timmons: THANK YOU,  LAURA.

>> Laura: WE RECENTLY AIRED  A CONVERSATION WITH THE PUEBLO OF ACOMA'S THERESA  PASQUAL ABOUT PROTECTING THE GREATER CHACO LANDSCAPE.

SO MUCH OF WHAT SHE TALKED ABOUT APPLIES MORE BROADLY.

HERE WE TALK ABOUT WHAT IS LOST WHEN WE FAIL TO MAKE A  COMMITMENT TOWARD CHANGE.

>> Laura: HI, TERESA.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Pasqual: HI, LAURA.

HOW ARE YOU DOING?

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: I'M GOOD.

SO I WANTED TO START, AND I  WISH WE WERE ACTUALLY SITTING THERE TOGETHER  TODAY, RIGHT NOW, WITH CHACO CANYON.

LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH IT AS A NATIONAL PARK  AND A PLACE THEY MIGHT VISIT FOR A DAY, OR MAYBE CAMP,  BUT IT'S A LOT MORE THAN THAT TO THE PEOPLE OF THE  PUEBLO OF ACOMA AND OTHER TRIBES.

AND I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT  ABOUT WHY CHACO CANYON IS SO SPECIAL.

>> Pasqual: SURE.

CHACO CANYON, AS MOST PEOPLE  REFER TO IT AND KNOW IT AS, IS REFERRED TO AS W'AASRBA  SHAK'A THERE AT MY HOME COMMUNITY OF ACOMA.

AND IT'S SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE  IN THE MOVEMENT AND MIGRATION OF OUR PEOPLE AS  THEY MADE THEIR WAY INTO PRESENT DAY ACOMA.

MANY PUEBLOS AND MANY TRIBES HAVE SOME KIND OF RELATIONAL  CONTEXT TO THAT SPECIAL AND SACRED PLACE.

MANY PUEBLOS REAFFIRM THEIR PRESENT DAY CONNECTION TO  CHACO, AND ALSO HAVE STORIES AND ORAL HISTORIES THAT TAKE  THEM THROUGH THAT GREATER CHACOAN LANDSCAPE AS THEY  MADE THEIR WAY TO THE PRESENT DAY PUEBLOS THAT  THEY OCCUPY NOW.

AND SO THESE PLACES WERE  PLACES WHERE OUR ANCESTORIAL PEOPLE AND THEIR CLANS  REALLY STARTED TO FORM AND ORGANIZE INTO THE DISTINCT  SOCIETIES AND PUEBLO COMMUNITIES THAT WE HAVE  TODAY.

SO THEY BROUGHT THAT  KNOWLEDGE, THAT SKILLS, THE TEACHINGS THAT THEY ACQUIRED  OVER CENTURIES OF LIVING ON THE LANDSCAPE, AND REALLY  BROUGHT THAT FORWARD INTO THE PRESENT DAY COMMUNITIES.

SO WHAT WE HAVE NOW IN OUR PUEBLO COMMUNITIES HERE IN  THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO REALLY ARE THE DESCENDANTS  OF THOSE PEOPLE, THE ANCESTORIAL PEOPLE WHO ONCE  OCCUPIED THOSE LANDS.

SO THAT'S WHAT GIVES IT  SPECIAL MEANING.

>> Laura: SO IN THE LAST,  GOSH, MANY DECADES, PROBABLY SINCE THE 1940s, THE SAN  JUAN BASIN HAS BEEN A PLACE THAT HAS BEEN DRILLED FOR  NATURAL GAS, AND MORE RECENTLY FOR SHALE OIL, I  THINK IT'S CALLED, AND I'M CURIOUS, THERE ARE HUNDREDS,  THOUSANDS OF WELLS AROUND THAT CHACOAN LANDSCAPE, AND  I KNOW THERE'S BROAD IMPACT, BUT WHAT ARE SOME OF THE  WAYS IN WHICH THAT DRILLING HAS AFFECTED THE LANDSCAPE  AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE A PART OF IT?

>> Pasqual: WE KNOW THAT OVER 90 PERCENT OF FEDERAL  LANDS IN THAT GREATER CHACOAN LANDSCAPE HAVE  ALREADY BEEN PERMITTED FOR EXPLORATION AND DEVELOPMENT.

WHAT THE PUEBLOS AND TRIBES HAVE LONG BEEN ASKING FOR  FROM THE FEDERAL AGENCIES IS REALLY THE PROTECTION OF  THAT LAST REMAINING, I WOULD SAY EVEN LESS THAN 10  PERCENT, AS DEVELOPMENT CONTINUES.

WHAT IS LOST IN THAT LANDSCAPE, REALLY, IS  EVERYTHING THAT THE DEVELOPMENT TOUCHES THAT IS  NEEDED TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF EXTRACTION, FROM ROADS TO  WELL PADS TO THE VISUAL LANDSCAPE TO THE SOUND  SCAPES THAT EXIST, TO THE MIGRATION ROUTES OF  WILDLIFE, TO JUST THE ABILITY TO CONNECT WITH A  SACRED LANDSCAPE AND ANCESTORS IN QUIETNESS AND  PEACE AND SOLITUDE.

ALL OF THAT IS LOST WITH  DEVELOPMENT, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO FAR TO SEE IT.

WHETHER YOU COME IN FROM THE NORTH SIDE OR COME IN  THROUGH THE SOUTH ENTRANCE TO THE PARK, ONE WILL SEE  WHAT DIFFERENT TYPES OF EXTRACTION HAVE DONE OVER  DECADES OF DEVELOPMENT IN THAT AREA.

BECAUSE MY VILLAGE, ACOMA, SITS TO THE SOUTH, I HAPPEN  TO COME IN FROM THE SOUTH ENTRANCE TO THE PARK, AND IT  IS NEVER LOST ON ME THAT JUST IN THAT SHORT TRIP TO  CHACO, THAT ONE CAN SEE URANIUM DEVELOPMENT, WE CAN  SEE THE IMPACTS OF COAL AND COAL MINING IN THE AREA, AND  NOW OIL AND GAS.

AND BECAUSE, AS I'VE SAID,  OUR HISTORY ISN'T WRITTEN IN OUR PUEBLO COMMUNITIES AND  MANY TRIBAL COMMUNITIES, THAT HISTORY, THAT  CONNECTION TO PLACES, IS ALL HELD IN THE TRANSMISSION OF  OUR LANGUAGES THROUGH THOSE STORIES, PRAYERS AND SONGS.

AS THAT LAND IS DISTURBED AND DEVELOPED, IT BECOMES AS  IF ONE IS ERASING THE PAGES OF THAT HISTORY BOOK.

AND WE CAN'T GROW A NEW LANDSCAPE.

CERTAINLY ONE MAY SAY, WELL, AFTER THE DEVELOPMENT, WE'LL  TRY AND RE-GROW THE GRASS AND THE PLANTS, BUT REALLY,  THE CONTEXT IS LOST.

AND SO WHEN WE LOSE THAT AND THE ABILITY TO BRING OUR  CHILDREN TO THOSE PLACES, TO TEACH THEM, THEN REALLY WHAT  WE'RE IMPACTING IS THE ABILITY OF A PRESENT DAY  COMMUNITY TO NOT ONLY TRANSMIT THAT KNOWLEDGE, BUT  ALL OF THE KNOWLEDGE THAT'S CONTAINED WITHIN THAT  LANDSCAPE.

OUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND  CONCEPTS IN TERMS OF CONSERVATION, IN TERMS OF  STEWARDSHIP, IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING HOW TO DEAL  WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, ALL OF THOSE ANSWERS ARE CONTAINED  WITHIN THAT LANDSCAPE.

BUT IT CAN ONLY BE POSSIBLE  IF THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE STILL ALLOWED TO MAKE THAT  VERY PRESENT DAY CONNECTION AND ACTIVELY USE THAT  LANDSCAPE AS IT WAS INTENDED.

>> Laura: SO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAD APPROVED  ALMOST 400 NEW DRILLING PERMITS, WHICH A COALITION  OF TRIBES AND ENVIRONMENTALISTS AND  ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE REALLY BEEN OPPOSING AND PUSHING  BACK ON THIS DEVELOPMENT FOR YEARS AND YEARS, AND ARE NOW  TRYING TO REVERSE THAT DECISION.

BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS STICKING TO IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK WE, AS A SOCIETY, SEEM UNABLE TO OR  UNWILLING TO PROTECT THESE MOST SPECIAL AND LIMITED OF  PLACES?

>> Pasqual: I THINK IT'S  HARD FOR ALL OF US, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT WILLING TO MAKE  THAT SACRIFICE.

PROTECTING SOME OF THESE  SPECIAL PLACES REQUIRES HARD WORK, COMMITMENT, THE  DEDICATION OF RESOURCES, BUT ALSO SACRIFICE ON OUR OWN  PERSONAL PART.

WE ALL LIVE IN AN  ENVIRONMENT THAT IS HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON OIL AND GAS,  AND WE HAVEN'T REALLY INVESTED LONG ENOUGH WITH  ENOUGH RESOURCES TO START REALLY MOVING US AWAY.

WE HAVE JUST REALLY BEGUN THAT TRANSITION HERE IN THE  STATE.

BUT WHAT WE NEED IS REALLY  TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT IS THAT IMPACT ON PRESENT DAY  COMMUNITIES?

AND WHAT IS LOST IF WE FAIL  TO ACT, IF WE FAIL TO MOVE, IF WE FAIL TO MAKE THAT  COMMITMENT TOWARDS CHANGE?

>> Laura: WELL, THANK YOU,  THERESA.

I APPRECIATE YOU TALKING  WITH ME.

>> Pasqual: THANK YOU FOR  HAVING ME.

>> Laura: AND LASTLY, ONE  MORE CLIP FROM THE FULL CONVERSATION WITH THERESA,  WHICH YOU CAN WATCH ONLINE.

I LOVE WHAT SHE TALKS ABOUT  HERE, ABOUT WHAT IT REALLY MEANS TO CONNECT YOUNG  PEOPLE TO THEIR LANDSCAPES, AND WHY THAT MATTERS SO MUCH  TO EVERYONE.

>> Laura: IF WE WERE TO  PROTECT CHACO IN THE WAYS THAT WE STILL CAN,   IN TRUE WAYS, WHAT ARE THE THINGS  THAT WE GAIN AND WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT FUTURE  GENERATIONS GAIN?

>> Pasqual:   WHEN WE DO THIS WORK,   IT IS WORK THAT CALLS US BEYOND THE CREATION OF  POLICY.

IN MY HOME COMMUNITY, I SEE  IT AS GIVING BACK YOUNG PEOPLE A PLACE WHERE  IDENTITY FORMATION BEGINS.

WHEN WE TALK IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO ABOUT A PLACE  WHERE OUR CHILDREN ARE STRUGGLING WITHIN THE  EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM, IDENTITY FORMATION IS CRITICAL TO  THAT.

BEING   CERTAIN OF WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU COME FROM, AND  BEING SECURE IN KNOWING THAT THOSE PLACES THAT ARE  CHERISHED BY YOUR COMMUNITY, THAT MAKE THAT FOUNDATION  FOR YOUR LEARNING AS A YOUNG PERSON, AREN'T THREATENED,  AREN'T GOING TO BE DESTROYED BY DEVELOPMENT, THAT THOSE  PLACES ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS YOUR MATH BOOK, AS YOUR  HISTORY, AS YOUR CHEMISTRY BOOK, AS YOUR ENGLISH BOOK.

THAT THOSE PLACES, ALONG WITH WHAT YOU LEARN, ARE  CRITICAL IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN   THOSE THINGS THAT YOU WILL ACQUIRE IN  WESTERN EDUCATION.

THEY ARE CRITICAL TO THE  FOUNDATION OF THE WELL-BEING OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE IN  IDENTITY FORMATION, IN MENTAL HEALTH, IN EDUCATION,  IN LANGUAGE LEARNING, DUAL LANGUAGE LEARNING.

ALL OF THESE THINGS MAKE FOR STRONGER STUDENTS, MAKE FOR  STRONGER COMMUNITIES, MAKE FOR STRONGER LEADERS.

THAT IS WHAT WE GAIN IN TERMS OF TRIBAL COMMUNITIES.

IT'S ALSO WHAT WE STAND TO LOSE.

THERE IS THE OPPORTUNITY IN THAT AREA TO BEGIN TO  FINALLY HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT ALTERNATIVE ECONOMIC  MODELS.

WE DON'T HAVE TO PUT BEFORE  OUR CHILDREN THAT THE ONLY OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY'RE  GOING TO HAVE IN TERMS OF ECONOMICS IS GOING TO BE A  JOB IN THE EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRY.

MY FATHER WORKED IN THE URANIUM MINES.

BACK THEN, THERE WERE VERY FEW OPTIONS FOR THEM, AND  THAT'S WHAT SUSTAINED HIM.

IT'S WHAT PUT US THROUGH  SCHOOL.

BUT IN THE PRESENT DAY, WE  HAVE ALTERNATIVE MODELS OF DIFFERENT TYPES   OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT THAT CAN SUSTAIN  OUR CHILDREN WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THAT SAME  CHOICE BECAUSE THE OPTIONS ARE LIMITED.

WE GAIN THOSE THINGS WHEN WE PRESERVE THOSE PLACES.

WE GAIN STRONGER, HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

OUR MENTAL HEALTH, OUR PHYSICAL HEALTH IMPROVES.

THE WILDLIFE IMPROVES.

THOSE THINGS THAT IMPACT  CLIMATE CHANGE, LIKE METHANE RELEASES, THOSE THINGS BEGIN  TO SUBSIDE, AND NATURE HAS A WAY OF RESTORING BALANCE.

WE, AS HUMANS, HAVE A WAY IN WHICH WE, TOO, CAN  PARTICIPATE IN RESTORING BALANCE.

WE GAIN MORE THAN WE LOSE,  AND I THINK WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CONSERVATION,  ESPECIALLY IN THOSE AREAS THAT ARE OFTEN VIEWED BY  OTHERS ON THE OUTSIDE AS WASTELANDS, AS SOME PLACE  THAT CAN BE SACRIFICED, WE BEGIN TO VALUE NOT ONLY THE  LANDS THAT ARE THERE, BUT THE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE WHO  LIVE THERE, AND WE BEGIN TO SAY TO ONE ANOTHER, WE SEE  YOU, I VALUE YOU, I WANT SOMETHING BETTER FOR YOU.

AND THAT'S MY WISH.

THAT'S MY WISH AND MY HOPE,  THAT IF WE DO MOVE TOWARDS PROTECTION OF THOSE PLACES,  THAT WE GAIN BACK FOR OUR COMMUNITIES   THOSE THINGS THAT HELP TO RAISE A NEW  GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE IN STRONGER, HEALTHIER,  WELL-EDUCATED COMMUNITIES.

AND THAT WILL LEAD US TO  BETTER OUTCOMES FOR US HERE IN THE STATE.

>> Gene: THANK YOU TO LAURA FOR ALL HER GREAT WORK  THROUGH 2022.

IF YOU WANT TO WATCH MORE,  THERE ARE EXTENDED INTERVIEWS AND WEB EXTRAS ON  THE 'OUR LAND' YOUTUBE PAGE OR ON INSTAGRAM.

JUST SEARCH 'OUR LAND NEW MEXICO' ON EITHER PLATFORM.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND  ENGAGED.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT  WEEK In FOCUS.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO  In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.